Visiting Los Alamos, New Mexico: The Manhattan Project Road Trip

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Imagine heading high into the isolated mountains of northern New Mexico in 1943.

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The address on your mail is just a nondescript post office box in Santa Fe.

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You can't tell your parents, your siblings, or your closest friends where

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you are going or what you are doing.

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To enter, you have to pass through a guarded security checkpoint where

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a woman named Dorothy McKibbin verifies your credentials before

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granting you access up the plateau.

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On any official map of the United States, this place does not exist.

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Just months earlier, this high desert mesa was home to a quiet outdoor boys school.

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But under an eviction notice from the Secretary of War, the federal government

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seized the land and transformed it almost overnight into Project Y, a

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secret makeshift city of thousands of scientists, military personnel, and

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families racing against Nazi Germany to harness the power of the atom.

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Led by J. Robert Oppenheimer and General Leslie Groves, this hidden enclave became

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the birthplace of the atomic age, forever altering the landscape of the world.

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Welcome to Talk With History.

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One filmmaker, one historian, leading history-inspired world

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travels for the curious, the history lovers, and the explorer in us all.

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I am your host, Scott, here with my, my wife and historian, Jenn.

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Hello.

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Today, we're taking a detour from our Route 66 centennial road trip.

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While Route 66 winds through Albuquerque, we decided to steer the car north into

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the mountains to visit one of the most pivotal and guarded sites in American

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Los Alamos, New Mexico.

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It's not your everyday Route 66 stop, but standing up on the

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hill where the Manhattan Project took shape is unforgettable.

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We're walking you past the original main gate checkpoint, exploring

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General Groves' quarters in the 1918 ranch house infirmary, and visiting

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the stone cottage where Oppenheimer lived with his wife, Kitty, and

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their young children during the war.

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We'll also break down how an entire secret city grew to over 10,000

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residents, the critical roles played by the Women's Army Corps on the Mesa,

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and the re- the relentless two-year race that led from a ranch in the hills

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of New Mexico straight to the Trinity test and the end of World War II.

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I'm Scott Bennie, so check your clearance badge at the gate.

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We're stepping inside the secret city of Los Alamos.

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All right, Jenn.

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I made it through that last line of the intro.

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I edited it out, but for, for those of us, for those of you who are lifetime

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members of the History Road Trip or of our app, which is History or Drive,

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there is a private Facebook group just for lifetime members, and every

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now and then we put outtakes on there of us screwing lines up or whatever,

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or Jenn yelling at me off-camera-

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or me scolding her off-camera.

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Um, so if you guys wanna be a part of that private Facecr- Facebook group, um, you

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can become… You can do that by becoming a lifetime member of History or Drive.

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That's at historyordrive.com.

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That's our history travel app, and, uh, I've been doing a lot

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of updates to that recently.

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There's a lot of great stuff in there.

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And if you travel around doing History Road Trip travels, our, our

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lifetime members have shown us that they've used it on their travel.

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So check it out, historyordrive.com.

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But we're not here to talk about that.

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We're here to talk about Los Alamos.

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So Jenn, let's, let's talk about this secret city.

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So we… This is a part of our R- Route 66 trip.

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Yes.

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And so most people know Route 66.

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It's the 100 anniversary, 1926.

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Uh, that's what we're celebrating.

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But Santa Fe was part of that original route, and it kinda takes you up past

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Albuquerque up to Santa Fe because that was kind of a popular city.

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This is north of Santa Fe, about 30 miles.

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Yeah.

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But it's very hilly, and it's, uh, switchbacks, so when you…

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It's not, it's not 30 minutes.

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Like, you have to be careful when you drive up there because w-

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It's probably a good 45 minutes to an hour

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… we're driving into altitude, and when you're driving up into kind of a, a more

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r- rural area, which it really was then.

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Now it's a built-up city.

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But, um, in 1937 is when they cut off Santa Fe in, uh, for, for

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Route 66, and they took basically 100 miles away, and you just go

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right through Albuquerque instead.

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Uh, so we wanted to do that original route and always wanted

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to visit Los Alamos because of its significance in American history.

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Yeah.

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And like Scott alluded to, uh, this was the race for the atomic bomb.

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This was during World War II, and it was really the race between the

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Allied forces and the Axis forces.

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Uh, Germany, Germany was the first to, to understand the power

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of splitting the uranium atom.

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They had done it in 1938.

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And they had done it, but they hadn't understood the nuclear chain

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reaction that can happen, and they didn't know how to harness it.

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Yeah, Albert Einstein had written that letter to America to s- telling them,

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"The Germans are doing this." And because Einstein is, uh, Jewish, right, and

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because he's seen the Germans do this, and he's knowing what already in 1938

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what, uh, Hitler is doing with the, uh, antisemitism, uh, he's afraid of

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they don't understand quite yet what they've unleashed, and so he wants to

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make sure America is aware of this.

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So-

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So, so he, he sees the writing on the wall.

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He sees the writing on the wall.

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Okay.

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And if you saw the movie Oppenheimer, it really is Einstein talking to

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Oppenheimer, kind of letting them know the seriousness of this.

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Okay.

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Uh, and so that is what's happening here, is they know that Germany has this power,

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but they don't know yet how to contain it, and, um, the Americans, especially

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the American, um, government, starts to see the importance of scientists

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who are leaving Germany, right?

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They're escaping from Germany, but they understand the

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power that the Germans have.

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And it is, at this time, we've talked about this before,

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this great race of technology.

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Yeah.

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Right?

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America and Germany are really racing each other with who can be the

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quickest to build better ships and better planes and better submarines.

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And so it really is this race of technology, and so this is the,

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the, the chemistry side of it.

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And what's interesting is Hitler really doesn't put emphasis into this.

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He doesn't see the power of this, and that is what's so great about these German

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scientists, you know, um, Einstein, who do see the power of it, and they're able

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to get the attention of the Americans.

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And the Americans believe them and believe that, and so that's when they

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get this joint operation, and w- we really talk about this in Los Alamos.

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We really talk about Leslie, g- General, um, Leslie Groves-

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Yep … and Robert Oppenheimer.

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Like, they are really the power behind this, and the money and the people that go

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into this, you can see this at Los Alamos.

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And it's really great that America put the emphasis on this.

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Germany put their emphasis on rockets and, uh, other technologies like that because

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they didn't think… They thought they would win the war before the atomic race-

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Mm

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… had started.

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They thought they would have the war won before this even, so they didn't

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put a lot of emphasis into this.

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And at the beginning, the Americans really feel like they're

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neck and neck with the Germans.

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Like, they're really, we're coinciding, we're racing each other.

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It's in 1944 they start to realize that Germany is way behind, and they're

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way ahead, and so they just keep going because they wanna make sure that they

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have understood this atomic process.

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So that was projects like the atomic bomb, the B-29, with how

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massive that aircraft was and the extended range that it provided.

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Like, that, those were kind of the big technological leaps really

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of the era, along with everything else that we did during the war.

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Now, you said kind of America said, "Yep, we believe you, Einstein."

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Mm-hmm.

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Right?

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We're gonna bring all these scientists together, Oppenheimer

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obviously leading that charge.

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Did they essentially kind of find Los Alamos because it, we need… They were

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like, "Hey, we need someone, somewhere that's out of the way, off the grid.

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This is, you know- GS-14 classified

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So they picked Los Alamos because of Oppenheimer.

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Oh.

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He had vacationed there as a kid.

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He had gone to those camps.

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Oh.

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He had se- and he loved it there.

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I didn't know that.

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And he loved the isolationist of it there.

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And what's really neat is a lot of Los Alamos is funded by

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the University of California.

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You get a lot of Berkeley people, and so you get a lot of their

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laboratories that are funding this.

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So it's close enough to California, and it's isolated enough that Groves

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completely agrees with his idea to take this location and make it our top sec-

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So-

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… top secret location

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… so Oppenheimer had been to the boys school, the ranch that was there.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yes.

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Oh, I didn't know that.

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And

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he- That's interesting

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and he loved it.

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He loved, he loved the area.

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He loved what it provided for his, you know, for h- his soul

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and how he could relax and- And,

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and, and I'm glad you brought that up because, right, we focus on kind of h-

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historic travel and things like that.

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Mm-hmm.

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It was m- more beautiful up there than I expected.

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It was…

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It had that very mountain town vibe to it.

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It… You think Los Alamos, you think New Mexico, and you tend to

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think kind of desert landscape.

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Mm-hmm.

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But this was, like you said, it was up at altitude, so it was cooler up there.

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It was actually really nice 'cause we were smack in the, you know, the, the

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end of July when we were getting up there, and it was really nice up there.

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And, and it was scenic, and it was this… Again, it had this little

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mountain town vibe that kind of reminded me of, like, in Southern California,

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people from there, like Idyllwild or, or, or other little spots like that.

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So I was kind of surprised at, at how, just kind of what it was up there.

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I was pleasantly surprised.

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It was really nice.

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Yeah, so this was a, a ranch school opened in 1917, and the goal was providing

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an Ivy League education with rugged ranching and outdoor opportunities.

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Ah.

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So that's kind of… I mean, you can imagine Oppenheimer has that.

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He's Ivy League, right?

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He's a smart guy.

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Yeah.

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Well, and i- if you think about it, for boys- Mm-hmm

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especially in that era, there's no, right?

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Y- y- technology's not really as much a thing.

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It's, it's getting outside and doing stuff.

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Yeah, and it ve- it very much reminded me of kind of like a Boy

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Scout kind of school- Sure … kind of thing or Boy Scout camping area.

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And so they had built- Cottages, some log cabins, you know, places

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to eat and stuff like that, like a camp, like you would go to camp.

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And so that's what they commandeered, and that's what, like you said, the

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Secretary of War had sent a letter saying, "We take over your spot."

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Yeah, that was really interesting to me because, you know, it's, the American

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government doesn't typically do that.

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Right now, espe- and they were, they'd done it a lot in the past, right?

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Obviously we're talking history stuff, right?

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But this is 19- the 1940s, right?

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This is, this is very uncommon, but it was so important to the war effort.

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And, uh, that to me, I, was just very interesting because even in

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the video, we show a clip of the actual, basically like the eviction

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notice Yeah … from the Secretary, from the Secretary of War, um- Yeah

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the De- Department of War to this boys school.

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Yeah, so in January of 1943, they send a letter.

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They have the letter there on the wall, and it's one of those Too bad.

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Yeah.

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Like, you're not, you, you're not gonna … I, I don't know if

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you're gonna be compensated what it's worth, but you have to leave.

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Like, we're taking this, and it really doesn't matter.

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It's for the war effort.

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Now, this is 1943, so we've been at war… Actually, it's, like, the end of 1942.

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Um, been at war almost a year now, so people are very much

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into the war effort anyway.

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And yeah, so it's very interesting.

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Uh, Oppenheimer, uh, he's the leading figure in the collaboration

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here, and he tells Leslie Groves that he really likes this location,

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and Groves really likes it, too.

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Uh, he likes the, the fact that h- the site is, uh, remote, and it has

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some infrastructure already developed by the ranch school, particularly

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the Fuller Lodge, which we go to.

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It's now the museum.

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Yeah.

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And so they have buildings already there.

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It's not like they have to build stuff from scrap.

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There's some…

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There's an infirmary there.

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I think that's where Groves liked to stay.

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So there were some log cabins, and it's very log cabin-y-

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Yeah … when you're there.

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There was some stuff there that they could commandeer, but he liked that remote

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structure because then he could control.

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Like you said, we talked about the gate.

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You can control people getting in and out of the area.

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You can protect the area.

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And what's interesting is, um, the max population, uh, before the project was

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about 600 people, and then by the time the project is done, they have 10,000

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people living- Yeah … in the town.

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Yeah.

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And you have to understand, they opened the laboratory in 1943.

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They have their first successful Trinity test in 1945, in about the end of 1945.

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So in two years they get 10,000 people up there, and 42% of

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those personnel are military.

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Because you have to think, this is a really joint effort here between

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the military and the civilian sector.

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Yeah, so, like, the other 60%-ish are probably family

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and support and all that stuff.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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The military's not bringing their family, right?

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Right.

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So it's all of the scientists and the physicists that are

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bringing their families.

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And so much so when they open the school there, and they open

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a school with 140 students, 16 teachers, most of those teachers are

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wives of- Yeah … the physicists.

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So, and it's their children that they're teaching.

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So the military brings in a lot of WACs, and we ha- this is very interesting.

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They have a whole area dedicated to these women, Army Corps.

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They bring in about 300 of them, and they do a lot of the logistical

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work- Mm-hmm … there, right?

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The typing, the memos, all these things that you see.

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I mean, this is 1940s.

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Everything's still done by letter and telegram and typewriter, right?

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Snail mail.

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And so they're typing up all the plans.

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They're typing up all the programs.

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What's interesting, though, when you go there, is you learn

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that how much people didn't know about what each other were doing.

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It very was compartmentalized- Mm

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what your job was, and they made that so nobody could understand the bigger

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ramifications of what's going on here.

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Yeah,

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and that's the kinda typical kinda military compartmentalization where

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that's how they keep the, like you said, the overall project more secret-

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Mm-hmm … by compartmentalizing, and only a few key folks actually know

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or understand the, the big picture.

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Yes, and so w- it's now run by the National Park Service.

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Yep.

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And, uh, and so when you go there, you can go to the National Park site.

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Now, that's not anything in particular, that site.

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It's just a building now.

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Uh, but they give you the map to go and see the Fuller Lodge, the guest cottages.

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And it's pretty walkable too.

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It's pretty walkable.

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Mm. Now, I will say, kinda we're talking some, some travel tips here.

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When you're driving up there, there's a gas station that you can stop

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at if you want before you get up, but it's a pretty well-built city.

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So there's gas stations up there and grocery stores, stuff like that.

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But as you're driving in, one of the things we show first on the video

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is the actual, the old, the, the…

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It's actually at the actual location of the outpost, the guard post that

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you would have to check in before you're going into Los Alamos.

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So it actually has the old-school sign, and they have pictures of the

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old sign from the 1940s, and it matches exactly with the sign that's up there.

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So that was, that was kinda neat.

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But what it is now is actually just, like, a public restroom.

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Yes.

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So And I recommend stopping- Yeah … 'cause it's really good.

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You've just driven those 40 minutes to get there, and you're like, "Oh, the

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sign." But that's… But if you're going to the National Park, it's about three

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miles away, so you're like, "Is that…"

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Yeah, I would… As you're driving into Los Alamos, stop there first.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right?

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Stop at the… You can use the restroom if you wanna use the restroom.

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But you can take a picture.

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There's some kinda good scenery, and a- and for those watching the

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video, I'll show video clips of it.

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Um, but you can stop there, take your pictures, then you can go into the city.

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We actually didn't realize that.

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We drove past it and came back later.

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But if you're, as you're driving into the city, if you're listening to this

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on your way up, go ahead and stop there, and then you can kinda just

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continue on up after you've gotten out, stretched your legs, taken pictures.

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So when you get to the National Park site, you are gonna do…

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They have a walking tour.

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It's a very easy place to park your car-

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Walk around

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… and walk around, and that's basically what you can do.

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Now, they do offer Great tours into the actual deep locations, where

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the Trinity site took place, where, uh, the different bunkers were that

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people were at deeper into Los Alamos.

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Those are only available certain times of the year and by lottery.

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So that's not the typical tour you're going to do.

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The typical tour will be these sites where the physicists lived

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and where they ate- Yeah … and where they went to the movies.

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You

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can see Oppenheimer's house.

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Yes, you can see Oppenheimer's house, which I heard is going

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to be open for tours eventually, but you can go to the outside.

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And if you saw the movie, uh, they depict it in the movie.

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And so you can stand there.

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This is where he lives with Kitty.

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It's where they h- they have one child while they're there.

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They raise their other child there.

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And so you get to see how it's right next door to the other physicists' houses, and

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it's neat because it's almost like they're trying to make it a little neighborhood-

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Yeah

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and have some semblance of-

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Normalcy

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… normalcy there.

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And so I thought that was very neat.

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But it's really cool to do the tour.

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Go to the visitor center first.

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You're gonna walk around the pond, and then the first thing

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you see will be the statues.

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And so we have, uh, videos from that, but there's a statue of General Leslie

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Groves and a statue of Robert Oppenheimer because these are the two heads, the

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two men, the two visionaries behind the entire Manhattan Project, and one

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represents the military and the money.

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I mean, we're gonna get into the billions of dollars here.

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Yeah, back then.

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And then Oppenheimer, the, the brains behind it, and how they both had to

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come together, and with such vision.

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understand how they could do this and the possibilities of it.

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And really, when you think they do it in two years.

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It's, it's pretty wild.

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Now, the museum is one of the spots that we went first.

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So that we went to the visitor's center at the, for the national

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park, kinda got the lay of the land, did some walking around outside.

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Kind of, again, a very pleasant, nice place to kinda walk around outside.

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Then we got over to the museum, and the museum's not huge, but it does

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a really good job of walking you through kind of this whole timeline.

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'Cause if you think about it, there's a lot that happened in a

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relatively short amount of time.

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So it kinda shows, I think they even had some pictures of, like, the boy's

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school, the ranch before, from before the Army came in and, and took over.

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Um, so they walk you through that.

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They show you the Secretary of War letter, kinda, you know,

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evicting them essentially.

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Um, and then it talks you through what life was like in Los Alamos.

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It focuses a lot on that.

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So there's a lot of, uh, displays talking timeline.

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It shows the growth of the city, how it grew, like you said, from 600 to almost

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10,000 by the end of the war effort.

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Um, and this is all in two and a half years that- Wow

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that they were there.

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And so it does a really good job of walking you through that whole

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process, and then kinda giving you insights into Oppenheimer and Groves,

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and then the women that were there contributing and, and things like that.

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So they didn't go deep into the lives of any of these kinda

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primary characters, but, uh, it, it, it was a good little museum.

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I was pretty impressed.

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And that museum is not It's not run by the national park, so you'll have

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to pay separate to get in there.

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However, they gave it to us free because of military, so

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we were able to walk around.

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It was built as an infirmary for the ranch school in 1918, and it later

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served as a guest cottage for visitors.

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And like I said, it was General Leslie Groves' favorite

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place to stay in Los Alamos.

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Uh, and the museum features, uh, exhibits on the Manhattan Project,

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as well as people from Los Alamos.

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Uh, and if you need, wanna buy your, um, souvenirs- Yeah … that's a

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good place to buy them as well.

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So yeah, it's called the Los Alamos History Museum today,

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the former infirmary school.

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So what you can see is how they repurposed these buildings.

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You can see the buildings that were available there to them, and then

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how they repurposed them and used them for the Manhattan Project.

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And like I said, Leslie Groves w- actually would stay there and

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liked to stay there during, um, while he was visiting Los Alamos.

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But you walk around, and you go to what they call Bathtub Row, and Bathtub

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Row are where these h- was homes basically on a street that had bathtubs.

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And they were, um, they were homes built for the ranch school, but

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they adapted them for the scientists and their families, and it got

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their names 'cause they're the only homes in town that had bathtubs-

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Oh, interesting

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for their families, right?

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Because they had children and, and so they wanted to make it seem

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homey for these scientists that are coming here to kind of sit together

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and, and figure out this process.

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So, uh, and Oppenheimer's home is at the end of Bathtub Row.

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And, and it's a good size little place for what you see up there, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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So, you know, it kind of makes sense.

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He was leading a lot of the effort, and so his, his house was, you know, a little

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bit bigger than some of the others.

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It looked like they were doing a little bit of work on the front

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of the house when we were there.

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Um, but it was interesting to me, 'cause I asked you this

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before we started recording.

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I was like, "So two and a half years, they're doing all this stuff." I was

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like, "Is the movie relatively accurate when it comes to Oppenheimer and, like,

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how promiscuous he, he was while he was there?" And you told me, like, yeah, you

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know, he, uh, he was not faithful to his wife while he was there in Los Alamos.

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No, he…

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I mean, uh, he was one of those ecc- ecc- eccentric scientists, right?

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And he had a strong sexual appetite, so, uh, yeah, uh, that is true.

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If you watch the movie, that is true.

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And that's one of the things they kinda In the movie and, and in real life, you know,

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you're always trying to see where people's weaknesses are when it comes to giving

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away secrets, especially when you're dealing with such high level clearances.

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And if you have these different vices that they know that they can be used against

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you, it was one of the things that made him very vulnerable, and that's why it

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was so well-known, is because you had to, you had to poke the bear and make

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sure, "Hey, is this gonna be an issue?

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Is this gonna be a problem?

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We know about this.

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Is this gonna be something that we have to worry about your clearance

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with?" And that's why his wife knew about it and things like that.

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So it's very interesting, v- you know, human nature-

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Yeah … and talking about this.

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But, um, when you go to Bath, New York and you walk and you see,

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uh, O- Oppenheimer's house, it's right by the Hans Bethe's house.

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Yeah.

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Did I say that right?

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Yep.

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And he's the chemist that, uh, the, the two chemists that were brought there,

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McMillan and, uh, physicist Hans Bethe, they both were Nobel Prize winners, and

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they lived in that house at separate times, but they were brought there

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for their brains and, and part of the whole, uh- Race to build the atomic

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bomb, but it's right across the street, right, of the pathway to Oppenheimer's.

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Yeah, it, it, all these houses were pretty close.

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Again, it's, it's very, has that kinda camp ranch feel to it.

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So everything's pretty close.

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It's not like they're spread out and they're typical city streets.

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Now, it wasn't when, when we were there, because it's been built up,

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but back then, it really wasn't that.

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Yeah, the city has engulfed this.

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Yeah.

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So when you're there, like, there's businesses right across the

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street from Oppenheimer's house.

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Like, there's, like, a, a brewery- Yeah … right there.

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Yeah.

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You could go have a beer, right?

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And there were some bigger clubhouses for the ranch that are no longer

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there, and they have pictures of them, so you can kinda see where they

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were in those business areas now.

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But some places have been preserved, like the theater, like

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the, uh, barracks for the WACs.

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Those things have, have been preserved, and they could be open at different

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times for you to go in and see.

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And I know they're trying to revamp some of that to make it visited, um,

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more visitor-friendly, but it was really cool, if you've, especially if

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you've seen the movie, to kinda stand-

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Yeah

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in Oppenheimer's backyard.

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Yeah, I, 'cause we, I was, like, trying to look in his window, but

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the, the shades were all drawn.

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Yeah.

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But that, that was the same house, you know?

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Yeah.

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And, uh, and if you're, again, if you're watching the video, that's

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what you're seeing right now.

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Yeah, it was super neat.

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And if you knew anything, you know, there are three locations that are

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really synonymous with the Manhattan Project, and one of 'em is in

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Tennessee, Oak Ridge, Tennessee.

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So here's a, it's another, a National Park Service map.

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Um- Yep,

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future video that we're gonna try to do

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… and then we just did Los Alamos, and then you got, uh, Hanford,

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Washington, Richland, Washington.

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We've made a video from there.

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It has not been… It, it's in the, it's in the can.

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Yeah, we haven't published it yet.

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We haven't published it yet.

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But these three locations is what's needed to make the atomic bomb, because

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when we talk about uranium, uranium is mined, and it's very hard to find it.

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You get uranium-239, but that's not what's needed for the atomic bomb.

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You need uranium-235, and out, out of all the uranium that's mined, 230,

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um, 238, I'm sorry, 238 is 99% of that uranium, and only 1% will be the 235.

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And that's the uranium, that's the, uh, atom you need to split.

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And so what's so difficult about finding that uranium is they were like, "Is there

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another process we can do to get the same kinda reaction?" Well, you can turn that

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uranium-238, the bigger stuff you get, into plutonium, and through a nuclear

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reaction, um, you can make- y- the, the more uranium you find into plutonium.

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And when you split that plutonium, you get almost the same kinda reaction you

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get from splint- splitting uranium-235.

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And so when they make Little Boy, Little Boy uses that uranium.

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That's- That's

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the… Is that the first atomic bomb?

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The first atomic bomb, and that is found in, uh, Oak Ridge.

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But when they make Fat Man, Fat Man is using plutonium, and that's

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what they're getting from, uh, Richland, from Hanford, Washington.

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And so really, it's these three locations that come together, and in Los Alamos

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is where they do all the testing, where they do all the actual putting it

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together- Right … and the containment, and they do the Trinity test out there.

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Now, they're doing the Trinity test in July of 1945.

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It's successful, and they will drop the bombs in August.

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Yeah.

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So they don't waste any time.

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A- a- and I didn't realize that either.

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I didn't realize that it was that, the timeline was that

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tight from testing to usage.

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Yeah, I mean, again, it was a race.

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Yeah.

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And so it was… I will say, uh, we will make it out to Oak Ridge eventually.

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Yep.

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And but being able to go to Richland and see that a- another rural location.

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That's where they're gonna build the first nuclear reactors because

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you need these reactors to change that uranium into plutonium.

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And those are still out there today, and you can see all of that.

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And again, they're bringing in all these people, and they're

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putting them in homes, and they're bringing in all these scientists.

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It's the same kind of feel in Los Alamos.

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Uh, but I will say Los Alamos, the town, is much more built up- Yeah … uh, today.

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But it was super neat to visit, be a part of the story, see the actual

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locations, stand in Oppenheimer's backyard, and just celebrate, uh, America

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and what we did during World War II and how we came together in this race

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and actually beat the Germans to it.

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As you drive back down the winding mountain road leaving Los Alamos, looking

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out across the vast New Mexico landscape, it's hard not to feel the lingering

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weight of what happened on this plateau.

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In just over two years, a secluded ranch became the engine that

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reshaped modern warfare and ushered humanity into the nuclear era.

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Standing outside Oppenheimer's stone cottage or looking at the security

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checkpoints where ordinary families lived extraordinary and classified

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lives, you realize history isn't just made on the battlefield.

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It's forged in hidden rooms, intense debates, and the moral

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complexities of scientific discovery.

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Taking this detour off Route 66 was a powerful reminder of how

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many world-shifting stories sit just beyond the highway markers.

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Next time, we point our wheels back down the Mother Road, and we continue

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our trek across the American Southwest.

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We'll talk to you next time.

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Thank you.

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This has been a Walk With History production.

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Talk With History is created and hosted by me, Scott Bennie.

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Episode researched by Jennifer Bennie.

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Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode.

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Make sure you hit that follow button in that podcast player,

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and we'll talk to you next time